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Lord_rock
Underboss
2045 Posts
    
Portland OR
 | | 07/18/2008 1:03 AM |
| | So... Eladrin weapon mastery (or whatever it's called) gives me +2 DMG with the already impressive longspear... What's the build to take the most advantage of this? What extra edge can you eke out for me? We usually only play 2-3 PCs so I've gotta be the best I can be. Dex, str, and Wis all gotta be high too... Hmmm... | |
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Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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XAos
Underboss
2413 Posts
London
| | 07/18/2008 8:20 AM |
| Eladrin Fighter;
Str:18
Con:13
Dex:13
Int:12
Wis:12
Char:8
By 11th level the stats can meet the prequisites for Polearm Gamble & Plate armour;
Str:22
Con:15
Dex:15
Int:12
Wis:15
Char:8
With 1 point spare (probably on Con=16)
But consider that a Dragonborn fighter can have the virtually the same stats with str=20.
And the the extra strength is an automatic +1 tohit & +1 damage for all weapon attacks (including spears).
So being Eladrin, trades +1 tohit for +1 damage. personally I'd prefer the +1 tohit.
i.e. "Eladrin Spearfighter" isn't an advantage, it's a partial compensation for Eladrin not having Str+2.
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/18/2008 10:01 AM |
| Personally, I see the greatest benefit from the Eladrin Soldier feat going to wizards, clerics, and warlords.
Wizards are most likely going to be mostly useless in melee so giving them a reach weapon and extra damage (regardless of strength) seems like a nice perk. If they hit with an OA it's actually a contribution instead of a joke. Nothing game-shattering but nice.
Clerics with reach extend the potential uses of powers like Healing Strike or Split the Sky. Also, +2 guaranteed damage is always good in 4e.
Warlords are designed to screw around with the battlefield. I've already seen some amazing tactical maneuvers from our party warlord. Giving him a reach weapon + extra static damage would be sick. I'm thinking Eladrin Warlord reaps the greatest reward from the Eladrin Soldier feat. The Eladrin bonus to Int even boosts a tactical warlord's powers. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2413 Posts
London
| | 07/19/2008 4:40 AM |
| I doubt a Wizard/spearfighter works.
Wizards have no abilities which give stat boosts to melee attacks. So the spear would be a basic +2 tohit. And the longspear is a 1-handed weapon, so for a poor chance to hit. The wizard gives up a potential AC+2 from a shield.
Historically, why is a longspear 2-handed..?
The Greek hoplites used a long spear 1-handed, with a large shield.
The 2-handed pikes favoured in the late medieval era were 18+ ft long and would in game terms be at least reach-3.
The only way around that is to crossclass the wizard. And no class (yet) boosts melee attacks with the Eledarin's preferred stats (Dex or Int)
.
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/19/2008 7:48 AM |
| Posted By XAos on 07/19/2008 4:40 AM
I doubt a Wizard/spearfighter works.
I wasn't trying to make a case for "wowee, wizards with spears are awesome." More along the lines of "wizards with spears aren't complete melee simps." 
Still seeing the biggest advantage for both the extra damage and reach being utilized by warlords. | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2045 Posts
Portland OR
| | 07/19/2008 2:21 PM |
| | So what powers work best with the spear? I thought fighter would be best but prove me wrong. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/19/2008 10:53 PM |
| Powers which work really well with reach weapons:
Cleric:
Righteous Brand*
Healing Strike*
Split the Sky
Awe Strike (immobilize then smack from a distance)
Divine Power
Arc of the Righteous (hit with the first attack and make the second attack against anyone within a burst 2-sized area.
Inspiring Strike*
Sentinel Strike*
Indomitable Spirit*
*A reach weapon allows greater flexibility in tactical positioning letting the triggered effects hit allies 6 squares away from the enemy. Not a huge increase, but can still be significant in the right situations.
Fighter:
Tide of Iron (amazing battlefield superiority with a reach weapon)
Passing Attack (huge attack arc for the secondary attack)
Dance of Steel (longspear counts as a polearm)
Rain of Blows (obviously)
Sudden Surge
Siilverstep (obviously)
Talon of the Roc (obviously)
Dragon's Fangs (allows attacks vs. creatures which are further apart)
Serpent Dance Strike (yegads this is scary when combined with reach)
Exorcism of Steel (disarm an opponent and leave their weapon 2 squares away)
Harrying Assault (anything that lets you move is better with reach)
Paralyzing Strike (obviously)
Cruel Reaper
(Kensei) Weaponsoul Dance (three attacks with 10 squares of shifting + reach. Shiny).
Warlord:
Hammer and Anvil (stand behind your party defender and everyone gets attacks)
Leaf on the Wind (amazing tactical positioning made better by reach)
Warlord's Fervor*
Bastion of Defense*
Lead the Attack*
Inspiring War Cry*
Steel Monsoon*
Turning Point*
Lion's Roar*
Surprise Attack*
Surround Foe (move allies into flanking position and place them between yourself and the baddy)
Iron Dragon Charge*
Beat Them into the Ground*
Bolstering Blow*
Denying Strike*
Warlord's Gambit (greater potential positioning)
Battle On*
Hail of Steel*
Break the Tempo (one of the most amazing powers to use a reach weapon with)
Windmill of Doom (potentially allows one more ally to be adjacent)
Sudden Assault*
(Battle Captain) Force Retreat
(Combat Veteran) Skirmish Ploy
(Sword Marshal) Blade Furry
*A reach weapon allows greater flexibility in tactical positioning
letting the triggered effects hit allies 6 squares away from the enemy.
Not a huge increase, but can still be significant in the right
situations.
I see clerics having a few powers that benefit from reach, fighters having the most powers than directly benefit from spears and more that generally benefit from reach, and warlords having the most powers which benefit from a reach weapon. In any case the bonus damage isn't going to hurt.
Clerics don't gain any inherent bonus from being an Eladrin. Fighters wielding spears can benefit from the extra Dex while Warlords can benefit significantly from the extra Int.
One of my nitpicks with Eladrin is they're the only race which gains bonuses to redundant stats. It's pretty rare when you'd benefit from both a high Int and a high Dex in any build I've considered. Fey Step and Eladrin Soldier are the only reasons to even consider an Eladrin over Human (in terms of optimization).
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Loquacious1
Sneak
61 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 07/21/2008 11:45 AM |
| They do seem a bit redundant in some respects, but there are a few builds where it can be helpful.
Eladirn Wizard w/ Wand Implement Specialty: Gain a significant bonus to hit once an encounter--and faster initiative results!
Eladrin Wizard w/ multiclass into Rogue or Ranger. This one should be obvious: both classes use Dex as thier attack powers, and Sneak Attack requires a light blade (which is one of two weapons a Wizard is proficent in). Ranger is slightly less helpful, as the Dex is for ranged attacks, of which the Wizard has in spades, though the Hunter's Quarry is more versatile than Sneak Attack.
Eladrin Rogue or Ranger w/ Multiclass into Wizard. Just the reverse of above.
Eladrin Warlord/Ranger or Rogue Multiclass Mix: Gives the Warlord some distance options, all of which benefit from Dexterity. | | | |
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XAos
Underboss
2413 Posts
London
| | 07/23/2008 5:49 AM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 07/19/2008 7:48 AM
I wasn't trying to make a case for "wowee, wizards with spears are awesome."
The main wowee factor in an Eladrin fighter is using Fey-step to "blitz the enemy quaterback".
Try a str:16, dex;18 eladrin fighter using attack:3 "Armour-piercing Thrust" & spearfighter; Thats +9 tohit
V's a conventional Str/Dex/Con = 20 attack with a longsword or rapier of +8 tohit
By 14th level the spearfighter is +13 tohit.
And the conventional attack is only + 10.
By 28th level it's +17 V's +12.
The fighter class has multiple abilities of this style (at various levels), too many to take with cross-classing from a Wizard or Cleric. Hence I think this technique works better for a fighter. And a spearfighter really needs to boost both str & dex at maximum rate, so a PC can't afford to boost Int or Wis as well.
Posted By zenthrus on 07/19/2008 7:48 AM
Still seeing the biggest advantage for both the extra damage and reach being utilized by warlords. I have a different viewpoint on warlords, which is they arn't quite good enough, whatever design you use.
Perhaps that's because I don't think the WoW symantics {Controller, leader, striker, defender} is a good fit for 4e tactics.
I much prefer NFL terminology {quaterback, blitzer, guard etc...} It's "obvious" with that symantics that the job of a blitzer is to "get upclose & personel" to the enemy quarterback. While the job of a guard is to prevent the enemy doing the same to a friendly quarterback.
By WoW symantics a warlord is clearly a "Leader". Having an unambiguos "Answer", there is a tendacy to not consider precisly why it's a "Leader".
Conversly by NFL symantics a warlord has no clear purpose, so the obvious questions become;
What does this class do, that other classes (e.g. clerics) can't do better ?
e.g; One of a warlords advantages over clearics is they start with higher AC from a shield.
So if you give an Eladrin Warlord a long-spear, that advantage is lost ?!?
And what configurations of PC-teams is the warlord beneficial to (if any) ?
The symantic implication is that a "Leader" benefits any ally. But it looks to me as if this class in 4e mainly benefits melee
fighters (Defenders). A party that has mostly strikers & controllers gets much less benefit from a warlord.
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| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 07/23/2008 8:46 AM |
| Heh, now I wanto to try a D&D Football game.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2045 Posts
Portland OR
| | 07/24/2008 1:27 PM |
| I see very happy things in the warlord myself... he's a fighter after round 3 basically that can do fun tricks for someone else... he should also pull back after round 8 or so and re-assess the situation. If you play him like a straight fighter you'll be disapointed, if you play him like a cleric you will likewise be disapointed... he requires more finesse and a very very solid party with a touch of creativity by the dm to allow you to utilize all your options...
Still plugging through all the material. Good thing we're not starting up for awhile due to summer vacations and such. Leaning towards fighter but we'll see. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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