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Jax
Sneak
138 Posts
    
Montreal, Canada
 | | 06/09/2008 9:11 PM |
| What's good?
- Spells divided between utility/powers and rituals.
- At-will power, most of them.
- Minions
- The defenses
- No stats boosting items
- The implements
- The Inspiring Marshal remake... The Warlord. | |
http://joepatent.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25 | |
|
GuJiaXian
Sergeant
661 Posts
Roswell, GA
| | 06/10/2008 5:13 AM |
| | I agree: minions rock. I'll have to play with them more, as I'm still not entirely convinced that they're enough of a threat to really matter in some instances, but the simple concept is beyond great. I was looking through some third-party 3.5 stuff last night and came across a module from Goodman Games that described "mook" rules. The mook rules were, well, extremely verbose and cumbersome. The 4e minion rules are just so *simple*...I might not be convinced yet, but I can't wait to test them out more. | |
"Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 06/10/2008 7:01 AM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 06/09/2008 2:54 PM Posted By Ghendar on 06/09/2008 11:58 AM Posted By berus316 on 06/09/2008 10:11 AM
>Care to name those 5 or 6?
I'm sure they know perfectly well who they are...
Well, I can think of a couple but more interested to know if I'm one of them.  Aren't you always one of THEM? 
One of my all time favorite movies. 
| |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 06/10/2008 7:57 AM |
| I like the idea of utility spells like Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, and a couple others that I can't remember being at will powers. It feels right that a wizard can cast these at any time.
This is an example of something I would port into previous editions of D&D. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
| |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7710 Posts
| | 06/10/2008 9:03 AM |
| | Those are zero level spells. The utility spells are better, starting at 2nd level. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 06/10/2008 9:25 AM |
| Posted By wicked cool on 06/09/2008 11:06 AM
-minions. adds more to combat
- no more diaganols. good riddance. the less time looking up movement rules the better
-you can have a 4 1st level party fight a dragon thats not the size of a table napkin! makes gaming fun for older and new players.
- no more glass jawed heroes. Hit points are now the same and no more crying of rolled 1's and 2s.
- It doesnt have to be complicated. Just because it was once complicated doesnt mean it has to stay that way.
thanks for creating this thread GuJiaXian Well... minions, every edition of DnD allowed minions. Diagonals? Umm.. I run this way towards the dragon. What's your speed? Ok, you're close enough. As for dragons, only a wyrmling should be anywhere like that, and even then it should be deadly. Dragons are the ultimate bad boys of DnD, and always should be. How many people roll for HP? 3e wasn't complicated. 2e was with THACO, and 1e was difficult with the deal on initiative.
As a 4e player, I think I'd like to be a PC. That way I'd get away with saying that Rule 0 doesn't exist anymore and that anything I do to break the game will be legit. At least in all previous editions, Rule Zero was always there. No more is there a DM final say. At least they finally did away with most of the old fluff that I can care less about. And they did away with the monk too. Never made sense in 3e core and very few people played that class in my games. I actually played it twice, once with the Vow of Poverty feat. That's when the monk became a sweet weapon as a warrior class. Before then it was barely useful.
| |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai.  I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 06/10/2008 12:27 PM |
| Posted By Kaya Kenobi on 06/10/2008 9:25 AM Posted By wicked cool on 06/09/2008 11:06 AM
-minions. adds more to combat
- no more diaganols. good riddance. the less time looking up movement rules the better
-you can have a 4 1st level party fight a dragon thats not the size of a table napkin! makes gaming fun for older and new players.
- no more glass jawed heroes. Hit points are now the same and no more crying of rolled 1's and 2s.
- It doesnt have to be complicated. Just because it was once complicated doesnt mean it has to stay that way.
thanks for creating this thread GuJiaXian Well... minions, every edition of DnD allowed minions. Diagonals? Umm.. I run this way towards the dragon. What's your speed? Ok, you're close enough. As for dragons, only a wyrmling should be anywhere like that, and even then it should be deadly. Dragons are the ultimate bad boys of DnD, and always should be. How many people roll for HP? 3e wasn't complicated. 2e was with THACO, and 1e was difficult with the deal on initiative. As a 4e player, I think I'd like to be a PC. That way I'd get away with saying that Rule 0 doesn't exist anymore and that anything I do to break the game will be legit. At least in all previous editions, Rule Zero was always there. No more is there a DM final say. At least they finally did away with most of the old fluff that I can care less about. And they did away with the monk too. Never made sense in 3e core and very few people played that class in my games. I actually played it twice, once with the Vow of Poverty feat. That's when the monk became a sweet weapon as a warrior class. Before then it was barely useful.
You're kidding, right? There's still rule 0. There's a DM, there's rule 0. And 3.0 monks were insanely powerful.
Minions, I think they're referring to the actual new rules for minions, not the concept of them.
Dragons are the bad boys of D&D, which is why they're no longer the size of a cat.
I like the flattening of power levels, both in stats and HP. You can still do random, if you want, but it just seems to skew the power of the party.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 06/10/2008 1:40 PM |
| The fundamental disconnect between 3.5e and 4e is their ancestry. They come from two completely different game systems, and people who enjoy one particular system will not see the problems that other see with it.
Before I get into this, please note that I'm talking about a system in general, not your specific game. If your game differs greatly from the archetype I'm describing, that makes neither of us wrong. I can say that, judging from thousands of posts on ENworld, the wizards forums and other roleplaying game sites, that my characterization of these systems agrees with the most common form of the game, not your particular game.
3.Xe is, essentially, a Champions version of D&D. Everything is codified, bonus queues and meticulous calculations that feign reality are embraced and GM fiat is strongly discouraged in spirit, if not in specific. If, for example, you want an incurable disease to ravage the world, you're in bad shape- the rules really don't support such a thing, and many players will call foul unless you show them specific rules for your creation detailing why Cure Disease, Heal or Miracle won't stop the plague. There is a lot of aggravation added compared to older D&D for the DM, but there are far more positive side effects- everything in the world "makes sense." DMs have a harder time screwing the players arbitrarily. You have at least some way of evaluating balance (even though it was never achieved). How and why 3e evolved this way is very easy to answer- Monte Cook was one of the main creative forces driving 3e. Monte Cook also happened to be the line manager for 3rd edition Champions in the 90s. He brought a lot of his philosophies into the game, and it flourished.
So why did some people have issues with it and some didn't? Well, it depended on your game. If your group was playing for the story, with less optimization than average, then you would only notice the game fraying on the edges, but it would hold together pretty well. For us old champions players, however, it was a different story. We've been conditioned to make characters optimally, minding the math and analyzing all available choices. That's not to say we didn't roleplay, mind you- we simply made characters a different way. For us, 3.5e is a ruptured, hopeless animal. Clerics, Druids and Wizards rule the roost, and woe betide any melee class who thinks to challenge them. My last wizard made a mockery of every combat we faced- by the third round most monsters were blind, trapped in writhing black death or securely locked away behind invisible force walls. The melee types sorta cleaned up for me- I didn't do damage, see. I just made sure that no one facing us had a prayer of hitting my barbarian friend's 16AC at 10th level. And they didn't- he hardly got below 50%, even when facing CR13 threats. Let me transport that wizard into any other fair game (DM doesn't cheat on monster saving throws) and the same beatdown would result. 3.5e simply favored certain classes over others. It could certainly be fixed with a major revision- the basic framework is solid- but that's not what happened.
4e, on the other hand, is Basic D&D and AD&D re-imagined and brought up to modern standards. Monsters no longer follow the same structure that players do, so they no longer have to explicitly justify each ability. Emphasis is placed on keeping the game moving and streamlining the mechanics (ala Basic D&D) rather than attempting to model reality. An effort is made to make combats "Epic" rather than mathematically consistent- an Ancient Red dragon fighting what will likely be an Ancient Gold Dragon will result in a knockdown, drag-out fight that will last many, many rounds and will likely lay waste to vast swathes of countryside. in 3.5e, that combat would likely last 3 to 4 rounds, depending on rolls and spells.
So is 4e a completely different game from 3.5e? Oh, hell yes- it's not even close. But is it a relative of D&D? Absolutely, you just have to dig deeper than 3.5e. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
|
MarioCleanstuff
Warrior
325 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 06/10/2008 1:52 PM |
| Thank you, Puggins, for posting that. It's very enlightening. Best of all, it simply makes sense. My hat's off to you.
And I don't go anywhere without my hat. It's a +1 Hat, after all. | |
Completed trades: Brenigin, desiderata, HockeyFan, MikeyChraal, Raland, GuJiaXian | |
| 
Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/10/2008 3:13 PM |
| I like the fact that in the short propaganda section at the beginning of the PHB it says:
"it's new. It's exciting. It's bright and shiny."
That made me smile. Especially since the characters on the cover of the PHB are gloss-coated so they shine | |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 06/10/2008 3:57 PM |
| Posted By MarioCleanstuff on 06/10/2008 1:52 PM
Thank you, Puggins, for posting that. It's very enlightening. Best of all, it simply makes sense. My hat's off to you.
And I don't go anywhere without my hat. It's a +1 Hat, after all.
Agreed. Very insightful. I didn't know about the champions line.
The more I playe 4E, the more it feels like 2E, only in a different route than 3e went. It still feels pretty good. Some sacred cows are gone, but I feel a lot more of the wonder of the world I had in 2E and 1E.
I guess, 3E is a world with a unified field theory, and you cansee it. Everything operates the same. 4E feels like reality, where wierd things happen, and not everything is so codified.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7710 Posts
| | 06/10/2008 8:12 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/10/2008 3:57 PM 4E feels like reality, where wierd things happen, and not everything is so codified.
So far, I feel the opposite. 30hp Kobolds and Goblins feel very artificial to me. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 06/11/2008 3:43 AM |
| | yeah, me too 'haze. Also, while I understand the concept of minions and actually kind of like it, I'm having trouble imagining a 1hp ogre. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
| |
|
GuJiaXian
Sergeant
661 Posts
Roswell, GA
| | 06/11/2008 5:13 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 06/11/2008 3:43 AM
yeah, me too 'haze. Also, while I understand the concept of minions and actually kind of like it, I'm having trouble imagining a 1hp ogre.
I just see combat with minions as a sort of abstraction. Remember that hit points don't equate directly with "ability to take damage." They're more of an abstract representation of how hardy and capable you are. Given that, minions have two purposes:
1. Slow down the PCs (at least for a moment)
2. Give the PCs something to just mow through and brag about later in the tavern while hitting on the local wenches
They only have 1 hp simply because it only takes one hit to drop them. They're only in the adventure to flesh out the "teeming hordes" of your villain.
| |
"Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
|
SirLuc
Skirmisher
7 Posts
| | 06/11/2008 6:45 AM |
| Let's look at it from a cinema standpoint with the whole minions thing.
Do the heros stand around for an hour dancing with the underlings? No. They mow them down aand then have an epic struggle with the BBEG. I love the flavor of minions.
And my favorite part of 4th, and all RPGs for that matter, if I don't like something... I change it! We have that technology. | | | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 06/11/2008 6:56 AM |
| | Except that with the removal (for the most part) of multiple attacks, you can't mow them down as quickly as you would have in 3e. Think multiple fighter attacks with cleave in 3e wading into a group of basic kobolds, orcs, or goblins. Maybe I missed something but I don't see a way to do that in 4e. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
| |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7710 Posts
| | 06/11/2008 7:33 AM |
| | Yeh, 3.5 you were able to mow down hordes of minions... I don't see any difference, except cinematics, where you know that if you hit a minion he will absolutely fall. I used to throw hordes of zombies and goblins at the party's fighter, she hacked and cleaved 8 on her turn and 8 on my turn with AoOs, I'm not seeing a difference. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
|
SirLuc
Skirmisher
7 Posts
| | 06/11/2008 7:43 AM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 06/11/2008 7:33 AM
Yeh, 3.5 you were able to mow down hordes of minions... I don't see any difference, except cinematics, where you know that if you hit a minion he will absolutely fall. I used to throw hordes of zombies and goblins at the party's fighter, she hacked and cleaved 8 on her turn and 8 on my turn with AoOs, I'm not seeing a difference.
The difference is that it now doesn't have to be 1 - 2 HD creatures that are the fodder. An ogre lord can have Ogre Barbarian minions. A Balor can have multiple types of Demons as minons. Etc. | | | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7710 Posts
| |
Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 06/11/2008 8:23 AM |
| The Minion rule simply applied the effect you saw in 3.5e across the entire level spectrum, Greyhaze. At 2nd level in 3.5e, if a party is swamped by 24 gobllins then they're in for quite a bloody, memorable fight. You wind up with loads of greenskin corpses on the floor and a somewhat battered party, most likely.
That sort of scenario ceases to be possible once the party hits the middle levels- hell, it might cease to be possible once the party hits 5th level or so. Any creature that an 8th level fighter can take out with one blow simply can't challenge the party in terms of offense. Attack an 8th level fighter who can do 20 points of damage with one shot and has an AC of 23 with, say, 24 bugbears, and you'll have a hideously boring fight. The bugbears won't have a prayer in hades of grappling or hitting the fighter unless he's completely surrounded- back him up against a wall and the whole affair becomes one long, one-sided exercise in dice rolling. The bugbears will not be able to hit often enough to make a dent in the fighter's hit points, and any grapple attempts are doomed to failure, even with other bugbears aiding a single bugbear (hello, attack of opportunity!). The effect becomes even more one-sided as you go up in levels. By the time you hit 15th level, anything you can kill with a single blow comes equipped with the offensive potential of a half-masticated spitball.
The minion rule is meant to fix that. Minions must achieve BOTH of these objectives:
(1) They must be easy to kill (hence 1hp)
(2) They must be able to challenge the party, given enough of them.
So now, your epic-level party can wade into a legion of devils and still feel like they're in peril. You simply couldn't achieve both goals above a certain level in 3.5e. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 06/11/2008 9:05 AM |
| Posted By SirLuc on 06/11/2008 7:43 AM Posted By greyhaze on 06/11/2008 7:33 AM
Yeh, 3.5 you were able to mow down hordes of minions... I don't see any difference, except cinematics, where you know that if you hit a minion he will absolutely fall. I used to throw hordes of zombies and goblins at the party's fighter, she hacked and cleaved 8 on her turn and 8 on my turn with AoOs, I'm not seeing a difference. The difference is that it now doesn't have to be 1 - 2 HD creatures that are the fodder. An ogre lord can have Ogre Barbarian minions. A Balor can have multiple types of Demons as minons. Etc.
There are demon minions? That's even harder to wrap my brain around than an ogre minion.
| |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
| |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7710 Posts
| | 06/11/2008 9:08 AM |
| | As a player or a DM, at low levels, I'd rather have them struggle against minions. Scaling kobold/goblins to have 30hps and ogre/demons to have 1hps feels artificial. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 06/11/2008 9:10 AM |
| As a PC, I can see minions becoming very annoying. My fighter can't get to the BBEG until he kills all the peons. Meanwhile the BBEG and his higher powered flunkies keep peppering me with stuff and there's precious little I can do about it.
Should be interesting to see if it truly is as potentially annoying as it sounds. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
| |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 06/11/2008 9:19 AM |
| | Yep... Since they only cap the crit for max damage, not have a potential x2 to x4 critical multiplier, the BBEG has potentially beaten the PCs because he can sit there and it's a swinging contest of who's got the biggest balls and who's going to be the first to decide to run away? | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7710 Posts
| | 06/11/2008 9:28 AM |
| | I don't understand that complaint... minions always caused this problem... and without x2 crits you don't have to worry about being dropped as horribly by a chump. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 06/11/2008 10:38 AM |
| I think it's that they want them to be one-hit wonders. The probelm I always had was giving some minon 4 HP, and then he gets hit for 3HP. This makes sure the fodder falls on getting hit.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7710 Posts
| | 06/11/2008 10:56 AM |
| | Well, I guess I like it when some fodder stays standing for more than one hit, gives it flavour, variance, pizzazz. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
|
hup
Sneak
71 Posts
| | 06/11/2008 8:17 PM |
| I do like reading forums to get other people's ideas on things... i'll come back to "minions"
What do i like about 4th (and note i ran the game day and haven't had enough time to read everything yet)
- simple spell durations: the DM is no longer some sort of accountant keeping track of everything
- at will powers provide not just something to do at each level but different things. The ability to target reflex or will with an attack rather than the rogue hit away at AC, they can now target real vital spots and weaknesses.
- simpler movement, more movement in combat abilities. The fighter can move allies out of their way, or slip past one opponent to get to another.
Just for starters. :)
BUT the one thing everyone i have spoken to agrees is the pointlessness of minions. We are back to the realms of everyone else is nothing and PC's are WAY above them. Bar-room brawl? Not with minion powered villagers who will die if they are hit? Please a cyclops with 1hp ?? And someone was talking demons (i didn't notice any minion demons but as i said i haven't read everything yet) survive the rigors of hell (or whatever they called it this time) eternal fighting with 1hp?? Don't take this the wrong way its not a problem to me - I just won't throw minions in, simple. And 250XP for a 1hp critter i don't think so... yes i know they will have higher AC etc... but really i don't think they would ever survive. Old school 1 in 8 goblins is born dead, in my opinion minions wouldn't make it to adulthood....
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MarioCleanstuff
Warrior
325 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 06/11/2008 10:51 PM |
| 1 HP minions are an abstraction. It's not supposed to represent "if a stiff breeze rolls well, they're dead." It's supposed to represent "these guys aren't so easy to hit, and they can hit us, but when we do get that hit in, they're gone." They're supposed to make characters feel more powerful, and they're meant to make combat more tense as you get literally mobbed by minions.
I think minions are very successful at what they were meant for, and I know I'll be having a lot of fun using them. | |
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/11/2008 11:36 PM |
| Posted By MarioCleanstuff on 06/11/2008 10:51 PM
1 HP minions are an abstraction. It's not supposed to represent "if a stiff breeze rolls well, they're dead." It's supposed to represent "these guys aren't so easy to hit, and they can hit us, but when we do get that hit in, they're gone." They're supposed to make characters feel more powerful, and they're meant to make combat more tense as you get literally mobbed by minions.
I think minions are very successful at what they were meant for, and I know I'll be having a lot of fun using them. Well put.
Minions are legitimate threats until the protagonist gets past their defense. It's like in a western. The white-hat gets into a shootout with black-hat and his minions. Black-hat's minions could potentially take down white-hat since they're sending bullets downfield. White-hat may have to take cover, fire off a few rounds, but eventually when he hits he hits a vital area (which leads to the obligatory minion death-dive off the 2nd-story balcony).
In contrast, white-hat may fire off some solid shots at black-hat (and vice-versa) but the bullets are near-misses/hit cover/graze/blow off each other's hats (each graze/exploding bit of cover/near miss/etc. represents diminsihing hit points). Eventually, someone (usually white-hat) lands a solid shot which finishes the other (usually black-hat).
Black-hat (the BBEG) is much harder to land a solid shot against than his minions (who usually don't select good cover/leave themselves open for obvious kill shots/etc).
The analogy translates to fantasy films as well. Conan tends to wade through the minions who are fine until they don't successfully block a solid shot. Then they're one-hit wonders. BBEGs on the other hand are much harder to finish (they can handle several solid hits).
Really, the more I think about the minion structure the more I really, really like the concept.
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11112 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 06/12/2008 12:10 AM |
| Another nice thing about minions I found out tonight... They don't roll for damage, so they can't crit and spoil some characters day. That's what the Boss and his Elites are suposed to do.
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greyhaze
Warlord
7710 Posts
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GuJiaXian
Sergeant
661 Posts
Roswell, GA
| | 06/12/2008 7:16 AM |
| | They have normal attack bonuses for a monster of their level, and then they have static damage listed. This actually wasn't done to avoid minions critting (though that's a nice side effect). Instead, the developers wanted to allow the DM to throw twenty minions at a party without having to roll damage for every last one of 'em. | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
7710 Posts
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GuJiaXian
Sergeant
661 Posts
Roswell, GA
| | 06/12/2008 7:26 AM |
| | Well, they miss just as often as other monsters of their level, so it's pretty standard in that regard. The damage is static, but somewhat on the low side; I recall some level 20+ minions only doing 9 damage per hit. | |
"Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
7710 Posts
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MarioCleanstuff
Warrior
325 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 06/12/2008 8:20 AM |
| A swarm in which you have to kill all of the members.
And to prevent the Wizard from Fireballing them all to death with a single spell, they take no damage from a missed attack. | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
7710 Posts
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/12/2008 9:18 AM |
| Each minion deals damage as an individual.
For example, kobold minions each deal 4 damage when they hit. So, if 10 kobold minions each successfully hit a PC that would be 40dmg. Kobold dragonshields typically deal 1d6+3dmg. So, if 10 dragonshields were to successfully his a PC that would be 40-90dmg.
Minions are a threat that typically has to be dealt with but they aren't as big of a threat as other monsters. | |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
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greyhaze
Warlord
7710 Posts
| | 06/12/2008 10:18 AM |
| | Ok, perhaps I'm a little confused, where does the "if" come in to effect if it's autodamage? Assuming it's autodamage, the 10 kobold dragonshields will hit dealing 40dmg right? | |
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