Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
    
West Valley City, Utah
 | | 12/03/2006 2:28 PM |
| I did some calculations and found out that scaling correctly would have been impractical in SSB.
For example, if a scale of 1" was used to represent 10 meters, an X-wing would be about 1.25 inches long, but an Imperial Star Destroyer would be 13'4" long.
If that scale were halved, an X-wing would be about 2/3 inch, but an Imperial Star Destroyer would be 6'8" long.
If that scale were halved, an X-wing would be about 1/3 inch, but an Imperial Star Destroyer would be 3'4" long. That is about 1 meter in actual size for a Star Destroyer and about 1 cm for an X-wing.
Since the starfighters couldn't be scaled to the capital ships anyway, it makes sense to abandon trying to properly scale size 4 ships vs. size 1 or 2 ships. Then, it could matter for within-class ships to be scaled properly to each other.
A quick analysis comparing the Tantive IV with the Millenium Falcon shows that this too is impractial. The Falcon is roughly 1/6 the size of Tantive IV. There isn't much room for the Tantive IV to be enlarged. If the Falcon were shrunk to be in scale with Tantive IV, it would be ridiculously small.
I'd rather have the Falcon the way it is and Tantive IV the way it is.
The sizes are simply too different from each other for scaling from ship to ship to be anywhere near accurate.
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"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Jenkiis
Skirmisher
44 Posts
| | 12/03/2006 2:59 PM |
| I disagree. Scaling is important. Otherwise why not just use counters and make it a full on board game so you won't be paying money for the aesthetic appreciation anyway.
The simple solution would be to make most of the Class 3s Class 4s instead as most of the ones presented in the base set are very small craft in the context of the universe anyway. That way the figures can maintain their size and make sense within the context of their size class.
To me it makes no sense what-so-ever that the Millenium Falcon and Imperial Shuttle should be larger than the Rebel Frigate (or cruiser, whatever they want to call it) and inculde them in the same class as light capital ships which they clearly are not. The Shuttle is especially bad as the model for it is almost as large as some of the larger capital ships and looks completely out of place in the game.
I wish people would just admit that despite there being many very nice models in the game that WOTC screwed the proverbial pooch trying to make this game to play to the collector and toy market. Both will give them fast initial earnings but the game has no legs as most gamers will just buy some models and either use them in other games or get dejected by how inane the rules are and just leave. Scale is just part of the problem, but it's a nagging thorn in the side of the game considering how picky many gamers who could've made a serious purchasing commitment can be about such things.
It's not as bad as how they handled Axis and Allies in the eyes of most wargamers though, especially since there should've been no problems with scale considering the size of vehicles in the time period.  | |
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Jenkiis
Skirmisher
44 Posts
| | 12/03/2006 3:04 PM |
| | And for that matter why not make the size 2 ships in scale with each other? That way some of the larger ships would be their real size, closer to the size ones (star destroyers and tf battleships mostly) And make the two size ones as a special collosal pack so the size appreciation is really there. | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 12/03/2006 3:08 PM |
| I said nothing about how important scaling was.
I just did some size comparisons to show that you can't really have a miniature Star Destroyer and a miniature starfighter. The starfighters are so much smaller than the capital ships that scaling is impractical. Impractical and unimportant are two extremely different words.
Give me a scale you think will work since you are so critical of the scaling they used.
Axis & Allies is a different thing entirely, as things in that game could have been close to scale. I just don't think it's practical with starships. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 12/03/2006 3:09 PM |
| Posted By Jenkiis on 12/03/2006 3:04 PM And for that matter why not make the size 2 ships in scale with each other? That way some of the larger ships would be their real size, closer to the size ones (star destroyers and tf battleships mostly) And make the two size ones as a special collosal pack so the size appreciation is really there. 
Because colossal still wouldn't be large enough.
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"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Avatar of Stars
Ghengis Ska
Warrior
334 Posts
| | 12/03/2006 3:51 PM |
| Posted By Jenkiis on 12/03/2006 2:59 PM
I wish people would just admit that despite there being many very nice models in the game that WOTC screwed the proverbial pooch trying to make this game to play to the collector and toy market. Both will give them fast initial earnings but the game has no legs as most gamers will just buy some models and either use them in other games or get dejected by how inane the rules are and just leave. Scale is just part of the problem, but it's a nagging thorn in the side of the game considering how picky many gamers who could've made a serious purchasing commitment can be about such things.
I think history would tend to disagree with you, targeting the Collector market and the Toy market is about the only way to get the game to have any legs and not get cancelled.Â
Honestly if gamers buy the game and use the minis for something else should WotC care, if people are buying they are still getting their money, and that's what they want. As long as people buy it they are happy, the market of collectors and toy people will help keep the line open to get mote models.  Many lines out there that are dedicated to just gamers, be it Wargamers or just RPGers don't last long enough or have the sales to have a long term populatity, or profitable, and WotC is owned by a traded company whose job is to make money. They also know people have bought the "real" toys to use in games, i have a huge collection of Micro machines, and other toys that we used for years in RPG, and they are close enough in scale to these that, hey if some one drops down some MM's or Titanium's to round out a fleet i'm not going to complain (heck it would be great to differentiate the Aces form the regulars that way).
 Where is the stuff WEG made geared to both RPGers and Gamers for Star Wars it wasn't geared for collectors and toy people, while oddly at the same time the Micro machines were selling great, and many of the people who where buying them were using them in the RPG.  I only ever saw the SWMB stuff in a few Comics or game stores and every toy store sold Micromachine.  The WotC minis have been sold in Walmarts, and like it or not that means sales, and that means we will get more minis. Wizkid while it has it's problems has been churning out things that are selling (Hero clicks which also targets Toy, collector, and gamers) and other lines, the lines that target more than 1 group SELL, which means they have legs, which means they get resources and we get more minis.
The gaming industry has taken note and there are companies that are shifting, sure many haven't taken the plunge to "toys" but both Mongoose and Rackham are putting out painted minis for new wargames, becuase the games the wargamers consider Toys, are Selling. Partly becuase those line target more groups, and thus don't depend on more fickle gamers to hold up a line. The fact that these "non wargame" things target multile groups (and the toy market has been getting raided gamers for years so why not make something more toy to get the toy collectors becoming gamers...) means it has great popularity, if that populartity gives the line legs, the people who want the minis get them, for what ever reason they buy them, they are being made.
Gamers are are fickle, just about every game i have every seen or played has people changing the rules, house rulling or club ruling stuff becuase it is not what they want, i [joke] kind wonder why "gaming" companies bother with rules in the first place since everyone just changes them [/joke], WotC made a product to apeal to as many people as possible, the people in WotC know things will get changed and house ruled by the "hard core gamer", so in some cases they don't care if the rules get changed as long as they sell the minis. | |
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Nobody Important
Sergeant
718 Posts
| | 12/03/2006 5:46 PM |
| I agree with scale issues to a point and really would have liked to see the Class 3 ships broken down a little more. I haven't gotten the starter yet so I still need to try the 2" grid but I do believe the game would work better with a 1" grid and a little more size variation.
Class 1 ships can keep there Gargantuan Size.
Class 2 ships are the same size as DDM huges and can remain as such.
Class 3 ships are when things break down. The Smaller (than class 2) Capital ships should be large sized but the freighters should be on medium sized bases and notably smaller.
Class 4 ships could be placed on small (or even tiny) bases to help give them a better sense of scale.
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 12/03/2006 8:20 PM |
| Nobody Important--interesting ideas.
My general opinion is that I wish that the Imperial Shuttle were smaller, but that since scaling can't be right for the whole set, I would rather have it basically the way they did it. If the Falcon and other freighters were smaller (more proportional to the Corellian Corvette, for instance), then the starfighters would need to be a little smaller too. And if they got smaller, the details wouldn't be as good. I'd rather have the starfighters the way they are, and have the Falcon the size it is than try to get scaling any different. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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XAos
Underboss
2413 Posts
London
| | 12/04/2006 4:14 AM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 12/03/2006 3:09 PM Posted By Jenkiis on 12/03/2006 3:04 PM And for that matter why not make the size 2 ships in scale with each other? That way some of the larger ships would be their real size, closer to the size ones (star destroyers and tf battleships mostly) And make the two size ones as a special collosal pack so the size appreciation is really there. Because colossal still wouldn't be large enough.
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Jenkiis
Skirmisher
44 Posts
| | 12/05/2006 5:58 PM |
| I'm not saying the scaling has to be perfect. But even at a 'relative' scale it's a big let down. The movies have always played to the size of the ships involved, but that's completely lost in the minis game.
I think they should've just given up on the idea of the largest ships, as they only planned on including two. And made the really large capital ships (ISD's and such) in prepainted snap together kit form. Many companies do this for reasonable prices at good sizes for a minis game. This gives people the option to buy some of the more Iconic ships like regular models (and keeps them available, unlike normal CMG schemes) and lets other ships move up in the size categories while keeping the same booster size. (if they really must keep making them random ;;rolls eyes;
Ghengis Ska: "I only ever saw the SWMB stuff in a few Comics or game stores and every toy store sold Micromachine."
But both are currently dead, and the WEG stuff has been in more demand.
"Mongoose and Rackham are putting out painted minis for new wargames, becuase the games the wargamers consider Toys, are Selling. Partly becuase those line target more groups, and thus don't depend on more fickle gamers to hold up a line."
Actually these games both target wargamers, as they won't be sold in "mainstream" stores. It's only their approach to selling to wargamers that's new. They aren't being marketed as toys, but as a prefinished product. | |
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DevArt Page-http://wolfgangbrooks.deviantart.com | |
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jedimech
Skirmisher
14 Posts
Singapore
| | 12/09/2006 8:25 AM |
| Hi All,
how about if they increase the size of the Class 1 & 2 ships' sizes?
This will not compromise on the aestatic views of the Class 3 & 4 ships.
Because, if the Class 1 ships are of gargantuan size, they should be at least as big in size as the Gargantuan Black Dragon of the DDM.
Just my humble opinion.
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Nobody Important
Sergeant
718 Posts
| | 12/09/2006 5:27 PM |
| After taking a "good" look at SSB and comparing them to my micromachines and other starships what I am most disappointed with are the class 3 ships. I'm happy with the size of the Cruisers and Rebel Transport but those shuttles and light frieghters are way oversized. I like their detail but if they were brought down to their micromachine size they'd have fit much better while still being larger than the fighters.
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2731 Posts
| | 12/10/2006 5:39 AM |
| Posted By Nobody Important on 12/09/2006 5:27 PM
After taking a "good" look at SSB and comparing them to my micromachines and other starships what I am most disappointed with are the class 3 ships. I'm happy with the size of the Cruisers and Rebel Transport but those shuttles and light frieghters are way oversized. I like their detail but if they were brought down to their micromachine size they'd have fit much better while still being larger than the fighters.
Class 3 is something WotC really failed with these minis - both gamewise and scalewise. Those exact freighters that look so oversized should all have been handled as fighters, which I'm going to do in my house rules.
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