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Subject: The Good and the Bad with the Starship Battles Game

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dmindock
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11/26/2006 5:07 AM  
I bought 1 case of boosters and 1 starter and played a bunch of games at Games Comics and Stuff in Glen Burnie this last Saturday and I have a few observations. ( ) First of all the models look good, however it can be hard to tell a star fighter ace from a star fighter. Initiative and Movement The winning player always goes last. As the rules are written this in advantageous for the winning player as all ships move at the same time, however, the strategy is so oversimplified that it makes the game boring after a few games. The round comes down to this Move fighters to pin enemy fighters Move larger ships Launch fighters Next Player The initiative phase gives the losing player a huge advantage to pin enemy fighters before the player winning initiative can move them into an advantageous position. A good example is that fighter bombers get pinned and cannot engage enemy capital ships, ever though that side won initiative because the losing player gets to move his fighters first. The movement phase is lacking because you cannot move your large ships less than 90 degrees. For a space combat game this is just to oversimplified to be fun after a few games. Most gamers want a game that ships can turn at any angle to a maximum amount. This rule just needs to go, it destroys the game. The rule for movement needs to include different speeds for the same class of ships. In the current rules the speed of a ship is determined by its hull size. So a Hull Size 1 Ship, a Very Large Capital Ship can move 1 space per turn while a Hull Size 4 Ship, a Star Fighter, can move 4 spaces per turn. This is just too simple, many players were stunned that an interceptor star fighter moves at the same speed a bomber does. Speeds should be different while the ability to turn should be determined by the hull size. Combat Phase I liked combat for the most part. I wish that individual shield sections could be hurt individually during combat like in the movies. Also most of the weapons seemed to have a 360 degree arc and had no facing. Damage Phase For a basic game the Damage Phase is fine, however some more detail would be nice for an advanced game to make it more interesting. Command Points I liked the command points and it added some color to the game. So in my Conclusion is as follows Starship battles is a fine game for very young children, however it lacks the complexity for anyone out of high school to be more interesting for more than a few games. The only answer I can see to correct the problems with the game and to make it playable for any length of time is to redo the rule book or publish an Advanced or Commanders Rule book to make the game more interesting. See you at Winter Fantasy

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dmindock
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11/26/2006 5:20 AM  
Sorry,

I am trying to make sentences, but the system does not let me make to make it look nice. Can some clue me in on how to edit it


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Gandy
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11/26/2006 7:10 AM  
Did pretty much the same last night.  Bought 3 cases so I could create teams.  I think they need to put in all rules and just not assume that people know how to play d20 style rules.  I collect and don't play much cause there are a few rules in D&D minis that just seem plained stoopied (see comment below).Â

Point in case.  I opend a droid control ship (I posted a question about this).  I see I have about four Vultures and other droid ships.  I read the book looking for anything about abilities and stacking.  Didn't see anything so the guy and I agreed if there is nothing to say they don't stack, then they stack.  Made sense to us.  The droid control ships are giving tactical information to the droids, SO ships posted around the battlespace give a more clear definition of the battlefield and the given atomospherics, so in other words, stacking made sense.  If you destroy one of the DCS then your picture of the battlespace is diminisehed, thus you lose that one bonus.   So the whole point to this is that the rule book needs to be inclusive, especially for people who have never played a d20 miniatures game before.Â

Unless this is thier ploy to put out a Star Wars Battleship book for 29.99 with all the rules you're supposed to have to play the game.

There were a few other questions we had (can't think of them right now), but I do like the very basic movent rules.  I think this game was intended to be short 20-30 min games to be played over and over again without getting drawing out into long hour long battles with a lot of thought into strategy minus the very basic, kill all the big ships first, then get down to fighter v. fighter.

Will play a few more and read the boards to see what everyone thinks.




My rant:
Mainly the fact that a super elven archer does not seem to have the ability to pick a monster and shoot it, he has to choose "the closest" monster and shoot it rather than the most dangerous, which like OMG would make since.  I mean if it came down to hmmm.... tiny orc coming at me with a mace or the guy in flowing robes with lighting crackling down his arms..hmmm...who do I shoot...OH wait this one was on Jepoardy just last night I know this one.


Sean-Khan
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11/26/2006 7:27 AM  
Posted By dmindock on 11/26/2006 5:07 AM
I bought 1 case of boosters and 1 starter and played a bunch of games at Games Comics and Stuff in Glen Burnie this last Saturday and I have a few observations.

First of all the models look good, however it can be hard to tell a star fighter ace from a star fighter.

Initiative and Movement

The winning player always goes last. As the rules are written this in advantageous for the winning player as all ships move at the same time, however, the strategy is so oversimplified that it makes the game boring after a few games.

The round comes down to this

Move fighters to pin enemy fighters

Move larger ships

Launch fighters



Next Player

The initiative phase gives the losing player a huge advantage to pin enemy fighters before the player winning initiative can move them into an advantageous position.

A good example is that fighter bombers get pinned and cannot engage enemy capital ships, ever though that side won initiative because the losing player gets to move his fighters first.

The movement phase is lacking because you cannot move your large ships less than 90 degrees. For a space combat game this is just to oversimplified to be fun after a few games. Most gamers want a game that ships can turn at any angle to a maximum amount.

This rule just needs to go, it destroys the game.

The rule for movement needs to include different speeds for the same class of ships. In the current rules the speed of a ship is determined by its hull size.

So a Hull Size 1 Ship, a Very Large Capital Ship can move 1 space per turn while a Hull Size 4 Ship, a Star Fighter, can move 4 spaces per turn.

This is just too simple, many players were stunned that an interceptor star fighter moves at the same speed a bomber does. Speeds should be different while the ability to turn should be determined by the hull size.

Combat Phase

I liked combat for the most part. I wish that individual shield sections could be hurt individually during combat like in the movies. Also most of the weapons seemed to have a 360 degree arc and had no facing.

Damage Phase

For a basic game the Damage Phase is fine, however some more detail would be nice for an advanced game to make it more interesting.

Command Points

I liked the command points and it added some color to the game.

So in my Conclusion is as follows

Starship battles is a fine game for very young children, however it lacks the complexity for anyone out of high school to be more interesting for more than a few games.

The only answer I can see to correct the problems with the game and to make it playable for any length of time is to redo the rule book or publish an Advanced or Commanders Rule book to make the game more interesting.

See you at Winter Fantasy

I guess this looks better =) Now I'll try to read it again... I took your post from quote from html -form to html -editor, replaced all emoticons with two line breaks (
) and pasted it back.

And now I can try to read it again!

All right, I haven't played but one game (and like all the first games, it was full of rules wondering). Like you may have seen, I've already started a thread about developing advanced rules, but I want to get into the game well before I start thinking about them more. There's a lot that can be done to rules while the gameplay stays still simple.

Good for very young children? Too bad that this is 12+ game that few young children can afford to get!

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West Valley City, Utah

11/26/2006 1:22 PM  
It sounds like I will be creating my own rules to use with the stat cards. I really think the game should be played 3D somehow. I want to come up with a way of handling different elevations. Even though in Star Wars, most of the battles are on a 2D plane, I think the game will be funner with 3D element. Maybe a hexagonal multilayer system. The problem will be figuring out how to use the different sized bases in a system like that.

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Luisjoey
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Caracas Venezuela

11/26/2006 7:59 PM  
Nice analisys My friend, i should try the game to see how it works for my own and give my opinion.

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Sean-Khan
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11/27/2006 12:39 AM  
3D? I don't know, still not as much in with this game but concept is definitely interesting. One possibility would be to represent heights with blocks under ships. If there would be even 5 height levels, highest represented by 4 blocks under the ship. The problem is that if there may be dozens of fighters on the table at a time, you would need HUGE amounts of blocks!

Ships straight under each other would't be possible this way, but it would be easier to figure out what's where than with different maps.

Still, the best thing would be thin holders with telescopic foot, (scetch below) but that would be pretty techincal already

________________
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|
| <- extendable telescopic foot
||
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||_______________

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11/27/2006 9:22 AM  
We played a simple match (4 players, two teams) on Friday with my starter and two boosters (ok, undersized teams, but that's fine). We found the game "meh" at best. There's nothing new here, and unless someone has an idea on a different set of rules I have no interest in buying any more of these...

I was looking forward to this one for quite some time. Now I'm nothing but disappointed.


XAos
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11/29/2006 4:42 AM  
Posted By dmindock on 11/26/2006 5:07 AM
1)   The initiative phase gives the losing player a huge advantage to pin enemy fighters before the player winning initiative can move them into an advantageous position. A good example is that fighter bombers get pinned and cannot engage enemy capital ships, ever though that side won initiative because the losing player gets to move his fighters first.

2) The movement phase is lacking because you cannot move your large ships less than 90 degrees. For a space combat game this is just to oversimplified to be fun after a few games. Most gamers want a game that ships can turn at any angle to a maximum amount. This rule just needs to go, it destroys the game.

1) Since initiative is mostly a 50/50 roll. It's exactly as randon to have the winner move second as it is to give the winner a choice of moving 1st or 2nd.
If you want player skill in who wins initiative. Include the ships which let you reroll initiative. Then if you want to move 2nd you reroll low numbers and if you want to move first you reroll high numbers.

While a hex grid might have better for "open space". It's an established feature of ship combat in the films that the capital ships cannot "turn to any angle" e.g. watch what happens in film-5 when a couple of star destroyers try to follow the Millenium Falcon's evasive manuvers. As is the restricted manuvering of the class-1/2 ships effectivly re-creates the appearance of space combat from the films. If you want capital ships which can "turn on a dime", you should be playing Starfleet battles not starwars.


evilMoose

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Broken Hill, Australia

11/29/2006 8:23 AM  
I have to say Ive been pretty dissapointed by the whole game so far. The mini's are pretty cool, but the game is just crying out for some form of Advanced Rules.

So far, every game I have been involved in has come down, to who rolls better early on. No skill whatsoever. In fact, the more you think about the game the worse you probably are. Pick the big stuff and shoot at it. 20 minutes later you re rack and go again. Has anyone noticed too that the blue d20 that comes in the starter seems to roll shitloads of 20's? A guy last night rolled 17 of them over 2 games and the dude I played earlier tonight hardly rolled anything under 17!

'nuff said,
AC

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11/29/2006 10:55 AM  
Small rules tweaks might make this work, I already started thread for it. Simpliest solution that I'll probably use would be half damage after range 6. It just makes fighters more powerful, so something might have have to be done for that too.

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11/29/2006 12:09 PM  
Ok, so I think the common consensus is that the rules for this game are not working. Everyone likes the ships (I'd like to get more!) but the game itself is crap.

So, what options do we have. Is there any other system out there that would make the game work? I know I have a couple of rule sets at home (Aerotech is quite well done, but very complex, Full Thrust I haven't read yet) that might work. Any suggestions or ideas?


Kepler
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11/29/2006 2:04 PM  
Posted By Android on 11/29/2006 12:09 PM
Ok, so I think the common consensus is that the rules for this game are not working. Everyone likes the ships (I'd like to get more!) but the game itself is crap.

So, what options do we have. Is there any other system out there that would make the game work? I know I have a couple of rule sets at home (Aerotech is quite well done, but very complex, Full Thrust I haven't read yet) that might work. Any suggestions or ideas?
I wouldn't say that it is a consensus, but it it a opinion shared by many.

For a more advanced rule set I have heard some people say they were going to use Battle Fleet Gothic rules.  I have never played (or even seen) the rules for BFG, but here is a link to downlaodable rules for it.


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11/29/2006 2:05 PM  
Also check out Boardgamegeek.com and look at Silent Death.  there are downloadable ules for a Star Wars fighter game version of those rules.


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12/12/2006 3:39 PM  
I already planned on trying out the game using the Full Thrust rules. Only problem with it that you would have to limit the battles to about the same class ships. The Full Thrust rules assume at least small capitol ship scale, and fighters are done in squads of 5 or 6.
I did this with the Start Trek micromachines and had a blast with it.

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01/20/2007 11:50 PM  
Two things: 1) My d20 out of the starter rolls low as much as it does high. There's no fixed dice.

2) How many ships were you using? I found the game got more interesting when we increased the number of ships on a side. I actually also had a fun time doing the Super Star Destroyer vs a fleet of ships. I'm finding that while the starter and a booster is good for a few games and to learn the rules, you need a couple more boosters for maximum enjoyment.

The problem with adding too many advanced rules is that complexity can ruin the game just as much as oversimplified. To me, clean rules are very important. If every ship does something completely different, that's too much and would be a horrrible experience. This is not to say that you shouldn't add or change the rules. If you'll enjoy it better then do so and let us know what you find, because it will be interesting and fun to test them out.

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MomawNadon
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02/06/2007 6:11 PM  
Uh Oh I don't know D20 rules!
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02/11/2007 8:27 AM  
Posted By MomawNadon on 02/06/2007 6:11 PM
Uh Oh I don't know D20 rules!

That would be a problem with the rulebook.  It wasn't written for people without d20 experience.  The whole rules and rulebook weren't thought out very well.

If I could actually find someone to skirmish with on SSB (I own nearly a complete set and plenty of ships to do skirmishing with but have yet to play a single game), I could get some experience playing with the rules.  I think that not being able to even play the game is killing my interest in it.

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